Harold: ur doing it wrong

#2
Shit, my Harold practice group needs to find us a moderator. How else will we know when to broaden or narrow the theme? Or when the suggestion has been outlawed?
 

goldfish boy

Otium cum dignitate
#4
So, not a bad way to structure a longer show, just not exactly a Harold.
What's exactly a Harold? The Harold has changed quite a bit over the years, and I don't doubt it will continue to evolve. I don't think I'd enjoy Mr. Bradford's take on Harold (children scenes--ugh! And a moderator?), but I like that people are taking it in different directions.
 
#5
Yes, I understand, if you want to get truly pedantic about what a Harold is. (There is a continuum, but there is also a point where day is obviously not night.) I am assuming that he's framing this for use as teaching a group of students, in which case the standard-training-wheels-3-scenes-3-beats-punctuated-by-2-group-games Harold is probably what he wants. Barring that, by virtue of having a moderator edit the scenes and direct the group games into known short form structures (while soliciting even more suggestions) makes this pretty much not a Harold. This reads as though someone had the standard--- Harold explained to them, they didn't really get it, and they tried to recount it to best of their memory through a lens of only having ever done short form.
 

mikelibrarian

Lost in the stacks.
#6
Yes, I understand, if you want to get truly pedantic about what a Harold is. (There is a continuum, but there is also a point where day is obviously not night.) I am assuming that he's framing this for use as teaching a group of students, in which case the standard-training-wheels-3-scenes-3-beats-punctuated-by-2-group-games Harold is probably what he wants. Barring that, by virtue of having a moderator edit the scenes and direct the group games into known short form structures (while soliciting even more suggestions) makes this pretty much not a Harold. This reads as though someone had the standard--- Harold explained to them, they didn't really get it, and they tried to recount it to best of their memory through a lens of only having ever done short form.
The original group games in Harolds were short-form games. I wonder if this guy was taught by one of Del Close's original students who developed the proto-Harold independently.
 

Holmes

of the Rare Bird Show
#7
Yes, I understand, if you want to get truly pedantic about what a Harold is. (There is a continuum, but there is also a point where day is obviously not night.) I am assuming that he's framing this for use as teaching a group of students, in which case the standard-training-wheels-3-scenes-3-beats-punctuated-by-2-group-games Harold is probably what he wants. Barring that, by virtue of having a moderator edit the scenes and direct the group games into known short form structures (while soliciting even more suggestions) makes this pretty much not a Harold. This reads as though someone had the standard--- Harold explained to them, they didn't really get it, and they tried to recount it to best of their memory through a lens of only having ever done short form.
The original Harold was like 2 hours long and all over the place. I've spoken with people who learned it that way and think of all improv as this art-therapy Woodstock naked strobe-light free-for-all.

Later, it got boiled down to an invocation opening and three beats of scenes broken up by short-form games. I think Truth in Comedy has it this way (maybe older editions did). This could easily be misinterpreted into thinking there'd be more suggestion-getting for those games.

This is how I originally learned. The first beat had three scenes and the second beat only had two; you had to magically know which would stay and how they would merge. The last beat was one big, crazy scene. The games in between were sometimes predetermined as a commercial spoof.

Now, the training-wheels Harold has a bunch of different options for openings and a concept called 'group game' that 90% of people don't understand.

Groups in remote areas or other countries cobble together their own variations, still calling it Harold (or quite often The Herald), that take slight slants at the structure components.

A lot of classes and workshops taught by people not too closely tied to places like iO or UCB will do the same thing, making up something that works well enough. If it's for kids, people do whatever they can, often including more rigid frameworks or directors/moderators/hosts that spell out what we're all doing right now.

If you say Harold to 3 different people from 3 different areas, you'll get 3 different ideas. The same could be said for jazz or modern art or ...pretty much anything that different people could do in slightly different ways.
 
#8
I know it went through a lot of evolution and distilling to get to the modern simplified version. I think the semantics on what a Harold is will be awfully tangential (but to me there is The Harold, variations on the Harold, and longforms inspired by the Harold.). Though no matter what you call It, this Longform this guy describes reads more like an extended structure for linking a shortform show together.
 
#10
To me it was about how About.com got it wrong. But it seems to have gotten away from me.

Let me ask you: If someone were to ask you to describe, in detail, what a Harold is and how it works, what would you tell them?
 
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#11
Whoever owns the theater you want to perform at will be able to tell you what a real Harold is.

I worked with one of the Compass players who was a dear friend of Del's and went on to direct at Second City in the 70's and his idea of improv was way different than anything I have ever been described or seen at IO, UCB, Second City or elsewhere. The definitive definition of improv is whatever was being taught when you were a young, excited improviser.

But, yeah, let's be reasonable. What Mike is saying makes sense- he's talking about the modern day Harold you'd see performed at one of the big theaters in Chicago/NY/LA and he's right that the About.com description is not the same.
 
#12
Something that's really interesting to me about it is that the guy who wrote it is a theatre professor at Moorpark College, which is only about 45 minutes from an iO and a UCB.
 
#15
I wonder whether the modern-day Harold you'd see at all of those big theaters is the same.
I wonder if the show you'd see from one night to the next is the same.

Michael, what is your point? Because right now you strike me as simply being contrary and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
 

El Jefe

latitudinarian
Staff member
#16
It seems to me that MJC's — and Violet's, and Holmes' — point is that the Harold is something that has evolved over time, in different communities, to versions that are different from the original conception. There isn't really one agreed-upon source for what it actually has to be right now. It may be a little like Brits and Americans arguing over which one is speaking English correctly.

That being said, I agree that the article you linked to seems very weird to me, and possibly misinformed.
 
#17
That being said, I agree that the article you linked to seems very weird to me, and possibly misinformed.
Thank you. This part is the thing I really wanted to get at. It is weird and it is most assuredly misinformed.

I love experimentation and growth as well. But I also like a common language from which things can build. It helps for people to be able to talk about things and understand each other. I might not want to paint in the Cubist style, but I still need to know what I'm saying when I say Cubist.
 
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goldfish boy

Otium cum dignitate
#18
I wonder if the show you'd see from one night to the next is the same.

Michael, what is your point? Because right now you strike me as simply being contrary and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Nothing to do with being contrary. My points:

1) I think some overstate the case when they assert that there's a generally accepted definition of Harold. That is, yes, an improv student would more likely recognize an iO LA or PIT NYC Harold as opposed to the mutation that Bradford describes, but a student at one of those theaters might be surprised at the differences in the other theater's Harolds--or not. I don't know. That's why I wrote, "I wonder."

2) Some (though not all) of us who learned Harold at a particular time (early '90s), in a particular place (iO Chicago), learned Harold not so much as a "form" as an approach to or philosophy of improvisation. To use your example, Harold is not analogous to Cubism, it's analogous to mural painting. (At various times I heard Del refer to the Deconstruction as a "Deconstruction Harold" and the Movie as a "Movie Harold.") This point of view may be completely obsolete now, at least in NYC and maybe LA and Chicago, but it may still hold sway in other areas. Holding excessive standards of rigidity regarding what constitutes a Harold may not only suppress innovation but may define out of existence innovations already taking place.

3) I'm not sure what the point of your original post is. Judging by the subject line, it seems to me you may just want to ridicule Mr. Bradford and/or About.com. I don't know the former and I'm no particular fan of the latter, but I don't see what the problem is. Do you foresee a danger of legions of uninformed improv students reading Mr. Bradford's article and overrunning the civilized world with atypical Harolds?

I'm not a fan of Harold being constrained by rigid structures and rules, except for beginners (who should be informed that such rules are only for beginners).
 

Holmes

of the Rare Bird Show
#19
Let me ask you: If someone were to ask you to describe, in detail, what a Harold is and how it works, what would you tell them?
I'd say what I posted above about how it started, how it was for many years (which got semi-solidified in a book and by classes in the 80s and 90s, and has subsequently been passed down by people who took a class at iO in '88 and now teach classes in some small city somewhere), and how it is now as the training-wheels Harold.

I might quote Del as saying "Harold eats everything."

I'd almost certainly stress that the vast majority of people most familiar with longform improv from respected institutions view the canonical, agreed-upon definition of Harold as the training-wheels Harold with an opening and 3 beats of 3 scenes broken up by group games.
 
#20
Nothing to do with being contrary. My points:

1) I think some overstate the case when they assert that there's a generally accepted definition of Harold. That is, yes, an improv student would more likely recognize an iO LA or PIT NYC Harold as opposed to the mutation that Bradford describes, but a student at one of those theaters might be surprised at the differences in the other theater's Harolds--or not. I don't know. That's why I wrote, "I wonder."

2) Some (though not all) of us who learned Harold at a particular time (early '90s), in a particular place (iO Chicago), learned Harold not so much as a "form" as an approach to or philosophy of improvisation. To use your example, Harold is not analogous to Cubism, it's analogous to mural painting. (At various times I heard Del refer to the Deconstruction as a "Deconstruction Harold" and the Movie as a "Movie Harold.") This point of view may be completely obsolete now, at least in NYC and maybe LA and Chicago, but it may still hold sway in other areas. Holding excessive standards of rigidity regarding what constitutes a Harold may not only suppress innovation but may define out of existence innovations already taking place.

3) I'm not sure what the point of your original post is. Judging by the subject line, it seems to me you may just want to ridicule Mr. Bradford and/or About.com. I don't know the former and I'm no particular fan of the latter, but I don't see what the problem is. Do you foresee a danger of legions of uninformed improv students reading Mr. Bradford's article and overrunning the civilized world with atypical Harolds?

I'm not a fan of Harold being constrained by rigid structures and rules, except for beginners (who should be informed that such rules are only for beginners).
Thank you, I didn't quite understand you before. I think I get it now.

Perhaps I was originally overly glib. I don't mind the form the About.com Guy came up with, it seems like a way to structure a show. (My main criticism is that it seems to be a longform constructed through the lens of only understanding shortform.) I do think though that if we're going to name things, then we, as a community, should be pretty consistent on what that name refers to. I understand that Harold has changed, and it will certainly change more. But right now, I was under the impression that we all pretty much were thinking the same thing when someone says the name "Harold." Especially in reference to beginners, which is also what I assume the point of an About.com article would be: to teach beginners. The reason I can be glib with this crowd is because we all know what that Beginner Harold is and how there is much more possible to it.

And, no, I'm not concerned about any danger of uncivilized student improvisors. I'm not the one who thinks we need a moderator in our Harold.
 
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