Damn this tv "for men"

F

froochbone

somewhat confused
#41
#41
Now, I'm very, very biased here due to my relationships with the people at CH, but I've got to take issue with the reading of this ad as sexist.

People have said that in the ad, they equate women in bikinis with ice cream. I don't think this is true. I don't think this ad is sexist because the joke isn't on the girls, the joke is on the dudes/girl not in a bikini. They get a bunch of money that they don't know what to do with, so they get ice cream. But they have left over money and they don't know what to do with it, and they think that an ad is supposed to have models in it, so they hire some models. But as they clearly have no idea what they're doing, and also are just super into ice cream, the models just stand there. This makes the CH crew look stupid and the models look like they're just having their time wasted. The CH crew is the butt of the joke.

If the joke was that models = ice cream, the CH crew would be, I don't know, making out with them or something, or "using" them in some way.

I guess the question is this: is having girls in bikinis in an ad or on TV sexist no matter what the intent/content is? I think that's a pretty shitty standard, one that's just looking for sexism where it doesn't necessarily exist without actually looking at the content. I fully agree that there is a shitload of sexism in dude-centric comedy, and I will hate on Dane Cook and Carlos Mencia until the end of time, but I think that jumping on this ad just because it has models in it without actually looking at why said models are there or what the joke of the ad is just isn't fair.
 
John_Frusciante

John_Frusciante

Lexicon Devil
#42
#42
I'm a male, and I spend a lot of time writing comedy and trying to figure out how to get it in front of people's eyes. I have never once thought to myself, "Yeah dude sexism is awesome let's write some sexist shit." Anything that I write about boobs or bangin' or showing your girlfriend your porn collection comes from the fact that I'm roughly fourteen years old, mentally, and not because I'm aiming for the sexist demographic.

But you know what I do think about a lot? I think this:

"What do I think is funny? How can I write it down? And how can I get people to see it?"

I also think this:

"I love comedy that's _____. I don't see enough comedy that's like _____. Maybe I should write something like ______. And maybe I can create characters and parts for people who are like me and that I think are funny." And then I try to create things that I think are funny and that I'd like to see.

If you don't like what you see, go make something you like.

Am I getting my point across? Am I being too obtuse in addressing this issue? If I am, I will not accept rebuttals to my points in the form of IRC posts. Put your opinions in the mouths of charactes, shoot it on video, and email me the link.

Oh, also, you're posting this thread about sexism on a message board where 95% of the active membership is people who found out about it through "True Porn Clerk Stories."

But maybe the most important point in this issue comes from Morrissey: "We hate it when our friends become successful. Ah ha hahaha ha..."
 
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S

Silvija

Member
#44
#44
Yeah, I figured I would get called out on the "girl in bikini = ice cream" argument. It's not really that strong an argument, despite Withers' awesome and detailed textual analysis. It's a tough argument to support if you're not in a Feminism 201: The Male Gaze class.

No, I don't think the CH guys intended to be sexist and I don't hold them responsible for the ills of society. I do hold them responsible for making videos that make me laugh, about pilgrims having penises under their hats. And do I personally think that specific clip is sexist?

Probably not, but the embarrassing thing is that since I don't have Facebook, I can't watch the clip again. I'm sure the joke reads as you say it does, Frucci. I'm relying on my memory of seeing the clip before, and I remember thinking that in general it was somewhere along the lines of Spike-TV. Probably not worth raising a stink over, frankly, but if you're exhausted and have lived all your life with a column, you may notice the girl in the bikini and that most of the people in the clip are dudes (although, as Dave rightfully pointed out, life with a column makes people more sensitive to these images--whether I'm overly sensitive is a judgment call, probably). Of course just having a girl in a bikini is not a standard for saying something is sexist, it's just a loaded image that some (many?) women react to more strongly than men do. And I thought it would be interesting to have a larger and more nuanced discussion about that idea.

Of course nobody WANTS to be sexist. I don't think anyone is saying that.

Frusciante, I've heard the argument "if you don't like it, make something better" before and I'll agree with it for the most part. Airing grievances on a message board doesn't really change things. But I'm not 100% on board with it because all critical thinking shouldn't be dismissed in favor of pure action. We may hate critics because they don't put their money where their mouth is, but a lot of criticism is helpful. If I don't think steroids have a place in baseball, do I have to train and become a professional baseball player to prove my point?

And, finally: GAVIN RAPED ME, EVERYONE.
 
N

natalieshort

New Member
#45
#45
ariscott said:
I see this reflected all the time in casting notices, which, for the most part, look like "Casting male 20's-30's, must be funny with great comedic timing!" and "Casting female 20's-30's, must be hot, gorgeous, sexy, great body!"
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I think that's the root of most of my sensitivity regarding "women in comedy." Even though there's definitely hilarious women on 30 Rock, The Office, etc., in most comedies (particularly movies) the main guys are funny, and the main girls are pretty and put up with/laugh at the funny men. That's kind of another topic... But basically when I think "comedy," however it's promoted I think that there will almost definitely be men in starring roles and in the writing room, and men will like it at least as much as women will.

So when something is proudly promoted as "comedy for men," really it just makes me think there will be a lot of beer/tits/laziness humor. Not because I think that's what men find funny- I love many male comedians- but something about its macho-ness turns me off and makes me think "lowest common denominator."
 
SixSider

SixSider

New Member
#46
#46
This isn't entirely about comedy but art/theater in general:

Way back when (1989), I took my first college theater class. (Keep in mind this was at Hampshire College.) It was called "Collaporative Theater Experience" or some such. It was taught by the Split Britches (full name: Split Bitches Lesbian Feminist Theater... they get points for being direct). Needless to say, as an 18 year heterosexual white male and felt a bit left out.

We spent a lot of time talking about what the hell "feminist" theater meant. I remember when the topic of completely seperatist theater came up (not only created only by women but designed to ONLY be scene by women). I was angry. Outraged. The fact that I was being denied to even see something confused me. But I slowly began to realize that there is room for just about anything.

Now this is not the same thing as Heather presented. One) I found (and find) Split Britches work hilarious and inspiring, but they OBVIOUSLY have a cultural/polictial agenda. Two) We can argue that the last 2500+ years has definitely had an imbalance in gender equality and who theater is created for. Three) Straight comedy is very different from alternative theater.

If I had a pint to all of this (and I'm not sure I do), it is that it is good to have different view points because that causes inspiration (even if it is only as a rage reaction). Yeah, that is kind of a cop out answer.
 
Rosie

Rosie

Code 4 "SASSY-ASS!"
#48
#48
It's not 3am so I can elaborate. *

Not to sound snarky, and I know I always do- I'm sorry...

Hasn't this argument been done and gotten did on IRC so many times?

Why have you assholes not learned that women are better than men?

And, where is the fuckin' man-ass? I. WANT. TO. SEE. MAN. ASS.

Thanks kittens! *Smooch!*

:love: Rosie

*I'm neither drunk or high- though maybe a little hungover.
 
C

ChristineNangle

New Member
#49
#49
this is really interesting to me. Silvija said: "I've heard the argument "if you don't like it, make something better" before and I'll agree with it for the most part. Airing grievances on a message board doesn't really change things. But I'm not 100% on board with it because all critical thinking shouldn't be dismissed in favor of pure action. We may hate critics because they don't put their money where their mouth is, but a lot of criticism is helpful. If I don't think steroids have a place in baseball, do I have to train and become a professional baseball player to prove my point?" I couldnt agree more.

I can understand the frustration that started this thread for sure. Sometimes, just the site of another 20year old woman in a bikini on TV or the words "comedy for men" can be annoying and discouraging. Then, you need to stop yourself, and think about why it might or might not make sense comedically. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but as a woman and a comedian, I'm bombarded with so many images of what a woman should be and what a comedian should be, and yes, sensory overload can happen. and I need to reconcile that. Everyone has different life experience, maybe some people don't need to put energy into reconciling that. Some do. Its energy spent, and we all only have so much. Should we have to worry about it? NO! But its not that easy.

Case in point: WHen I first got put on a Harold team, one of the first things a UCB acquaintance said to me was "Awesome- I mean, you're actually funny, too. You're not just cute." This was not in 1955. This was in August.

Of course, that rolled off my back because it was a stupid thing to say, but I think it illustrates the confused expectations out there.

I will say that I'm more bothered by things that are supposed to be marketed to women like lifetime or some "female comedy" shows I've seen at places like UCB. It sometimes feels like comedy for men is dudes talking about pussy, and comedy for women is women talking about pussy but in a way that is supposed to be empowering.

As far as the "Improv for Women" classes offered, I'm all for it. I think of it like this- improv is all about being open and vulnerable and free and bold and smart. Like it or not, we live in a society where these are things women aren't always encouraged to be, especially in front of men. Why not give people a chance to see how they feel and perform in a class of women? What if she realizes that all this time she's been holding back in a certain area and didnt even realize it? What if she had no idea she was even holding herself back? What if nothing changes? Is it really that big of a deal to try?

and along the lines of whatever true misogyny is, I'll just say this: rape, abuse, and other overt, easy-to-label sexism is possible because, over time, women and men are allowed to think of women as less than men, even less than human. In fact, entire industries are rewarded for it. it just doesn’t happen one day that someone says "I think I'll mutilate the genitals of my equal."

This post is all over the place.

and I like to put me around my boyfriend's dick.
 
Lord Hatsumi

Lord Hatsumi

New Member
#51
#51
ChristineNangle said:
Case in point: WHen I first got put on a Harold team, one of the first things a UCB acquaintance said to me was "Awesome- I mean, you're actually funny, too. You're not just cute." This was not in 1955. This was in August.
Click to expand...
Gavin, jesus could you at least wait until you are more than acquaintances with people?
 
ruby sneakers

ruby sneakers

hm
#54
#54
there are a lot of issues inherent in any discussion of gender in comedy, and i tend to feel passionately about most of them EXCEPT, oddly enough, audience-marketing. maybe this comes from watching too much kids in the hall as a 10 year old, when their market was never 'latch-key undersized american females'. i also suspect it has something to do with the fact that i have never taken kindly to being told what kind of things to like. there was a certain amount of perverse stubbornness to my adoration of teenage mutant ninja turtles and the x-men cartoon and exo-squad as a kid. that didn't mean that i didn't play with barbies (or star trek figurines for that matter); but rather i decided what i liked, regardless of what market it was geared towards. i persist in this today: comedy central's marketing team thinks i should like carlos mencia. however, i know he's a hacky shit-for-brains whose actual, appreciative audience is racist people in persistent vegetative states. so i avoid him and his retarded drivel. no marketing director thinks i should be toggling between 'intervention' and 'good eats', but i do, and i will. what i am taking far too many words to say is 'marketing can suck my dick, i will watch what i want to watch, and anyone stupid enough to pay attention to what marketing tells them to watch deserves to watch whatever product-placemented shite that is laid out before them'.

if, once i see CH, i find it grossly sexist / unfunny (which i doubt from what i know of the people involved, but it is possible i will be disappointed), i will hopefully feel even more enthused to push my writing and performing to prove that i am talented and hilarious. and a woman, too, i guess, but i don't know if i count as one, since i don't have a boyfriend's dick to enjoy / not enjoy / feel ambivalent about.
 
C

capitolgoga

New Member
#56
#56
Been reading everything here. You guys are smart and have all sorts of good opinions so it's a good place to post these things.

You gotta understand it's NOT JUST CH - who I've called out before* - and it's also NOT JUST this facebook ad. Another thing - their stuff is well shot, and some of it is very smart and great - so that's even more reason why I wish these people could be the good guys. I expect more out of them because I know they are smarter than this.

The civil rights movement was successful in so many ways - though racism still exists. You have Obama and more importantly - people really care about offending black people. This can be bad when folks are over sensitive - but what's important is that black people's feelings are considered, not bulldozed over. There's little fear in our society that we don't want to disrespect women. I wish that there was. I wish that there would be a hissyfit and shit hitting the fan when we were fucked with. We just take it like the pussies we are all too often.

I made this comment about minstrel shows earlier. Spike Lee has spoken about sexploitation being akin to blacksploitation in talks following his movie Bamboozled. In my opinion, strip clubs and things like that, are degrading equivalents of minstrel shows. And I'm not all uppity about sex and sexuality. I believe there's different layers of respect and consent that need to be part of sex in order for it to be truly awesome for women.

Really easy to go off on a tangent here.

I'm also not totally against babe type figures being used in comedy - but only if it's really original and actually funny. Only if there's really a reason - like a good solid joke being made. Not just a bunch of babes in bikinis thrown in like set decoration. It's just a painful reality. Babes actually are treated like objects ALL OF THE TIME!

* (If you're really curious, I got very pissed at college humor before based on them saying "traditional male comedy—the Stooge-ian variety (with fewer restraints now)—translates better online" in the NY Times)
http://heatherfink.blogspot.com/2008/04/fuck-you-college-humor-for-saying-this.html
http://heatherfink.blogspot.com/2008/05/ballbusting-college-humor-follow-up.html
 
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MichelleD

MichelleD

i declare shenanigans
#59
#59
Will Choy said:
Why does the idea persist that different groups need comedy written especially for them?
Click to expand...
Because people are often highly succesful at marketing themselves towards actual or perceived demographics. This includes gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation and such. But that's another rant for another day.
 
bdglide

bdglide

get in here all you
#60
#60
capitolgoga said:
Those channels' original content is, er ... barfies.
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Bad Girls' Club is one of the best reality shows ever. So POP OFF.

I also liked BET's weird computer animated VJ. Just wondering, what BET original programming have you seen other than Comic View (which is sometimes good)?
 
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