bell cops acquitted.

#2
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. And now there is twice over precident in this city that our "police" can murder a black man because they think that just maybe someone might have a gun.

4 shots is a mistake. 11 shots is irresponsible and stupid. 31 shots is ridiculous.
 
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#3
Wiki:

Guzman had an argument inside the club with a woman and threatened to get a gun. The woman was reportedly overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's friends, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all." In the final seconds of this incident outside the club, one of Bell's friends was heard to say "yo, get my gun" as they left the scene. Fearing a shooting was in the making, the Undercover Detective followed them to their car while alerting his Backup team that they were possibly retrieving a gun from the car, prompting the team to confront Bell and his companions before they could leave the scene.

The undercover officer followed the group and Bell was ordered by the officer to raise his hands after getting in his car. Instead, Bell accelerated the car, hitting the undercover officer, and seconds later, an unmarked police minivan. A toxicology report reportedly showed that he was legally drunk at the time of the shooting.
 

qnarf

you get gun!
#4
shooting 31 shots at someone is certainly a reasonable response to that.
especially when most witnesses i read didn't so much back that up.
and none of the cops testified in their own defense.
 
#5
shooting 31 shots at someone is certainly a reasonable response to that.
especially when most witnesses i read didn't so much back that up.
and none of the cops testified in their own defense.
Oh, you were in the court room so you have all the facts in evidence, right?
 

qnarf

you get gun!
#6
Oh, you were in the court room so you have all the facts in evidence, right?
oh noes i might have made up my mind that emptying your weapon, reloading it and emptying it a second time is overkill based upon news articles containing transcripts of the trial rather than sitting in the courtroom!
 
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#7
oh noes i might have made up my mind that EMPTYING YOUR WEAPON, RELOADING AND EMPTYING IT A SECOND TIME IS OVERKILL based upon news articles containing transcripts of the trial rather than sitting in the courtroom!
also you probably made up your mind to be outraged and don't care what really happened so you didn't need to wait for any transcripts
 

ChrisCamp

A regular guy!
#8
I think some of these statements are pretty unfair.

Undercovers aren't trained well for this kind of situation and if anyone is to blame it is the NYPD as a whole. They aren't supposed to be put this close to the action. The second a gun/shooting threat is involved undercovers and detectives have to be as far away from the situation as possible, especially after calling for backup. If any single person is to blame, maybe blame the Lieutenant or man in charge of the operation.

Can you honestly say that you can trust yourself to stay completely cool in a really dangerous situation when you get rammed by the car behind you when you know there is the possibility of a huge gun fight that is supposed to go down?

I'm not denying that 31 shots is a lot. You and me who are here sitting safely behind a computer, it's easy for us to say that it's excessive.
 

qnarf

you get gun!
#9
also you probably made up your mind to be outraged and don't care what really happened so you didn't need to wait for any transcripts
whoa whoa whoa
look, you disagree, that's cool, but last i checked, so were we. why you gotta act like you think i'm that kind of dude? you know better. we're friendly in the real world.
i mean, people can disagree about this stuff. yeah, i'm outraged. i think what the cops did was wrong. i would love to have a debate about the merits of emptying ones weapon in a stich like that minus invective, and i'm open to the idea that i'm wrong. certainly i wasn't there and i wasn't in the courtroom, but slamming me for that, when everyone here has an opinion and the same could be said of any of them seems... overboard.
i'm entitled to make up my mind based upon the available evidence and there's a huge amount of words and ink that have been spilled on it. i think the judge is wrong. i think doing what the cops did is wrong. i'm happy to discuss my opinion, but i'm not happy to discuss your seemingly negative opinion of me. unless it's in a different thread about what a douche you think i am.
 
#11
shooting 31 shots at someone is certainly a reasonable response to that.
especially when most witnesses i read didn't so much back that up.
and none of the cops testified in their own defense.

I left out the controversial parts, such as the stuff about a fourth man running off with the gun.

These undercover guys thought there was about to be a gunfight. They were dealing with a guy who had been arrested three times, once for firearm possession, and who had just said he was going to get his gun. When they told him to put his hands up, he responded by hitting a cop with his car. His two buddies had been arrested 12 times between them, and each for firearms as well. Adding on to that, all were drunk.

You're telling me, in that situation, you wouldn't fear for your life? To me, the amount of shots is irrelevant. It's clear that Oliver panicked, had a small black-out, and fired too many times. That makes him someone who doesn't react well under pressure, but it doesn't make him a murderer. But responsive gunfire on the part of the police was certainly warranted.
 
#12
whoa whoa whoa
look, you disagree, that's cool, but last i checked, so were we. why you gotta act like you think i'm that kind of dude? you know better. we're friendly in the real world.
i mean, people can disagree about this stuff. yeah, i'm outraged. i think what the cops did was wrong. i would love to have a debate about the merits of emptying ones weapon in a stich like that minus invective, and i'm open to the idea that i'm wrong. certainly i wasn't there and i wasn't in the courtroom, but slamming me for that, when everyone here has an opinion and the same could be said of any of them seems... overboard.
i'm entitled to make up my mind based upon the available evidence and there's a huge amount of words and ink that have been spilled on it. i think the judge is wrong. i think doing what the cops did is wrong. i'm happy to discuss my opinion, but i'm not happy to discuss your seemingly negative opinion of me. unless it's in a different thread about what a douche you think i am.
I'm entitled to react to capital letters and insistence in knowing what happened that night with my opinion that that kind of reaction was decided long ago without full objectivity and perhaps with the influence of bias or prejudice against one side or the other. I wasn't there and I can't say what was going through anyone's mind. You seem to have specific knowledge that the detective whose acquittal you are so upset about made rational decisions based on some kind of malice and you are willing to capital letter me about it. I happen to have access to the same sources that you do about the case and my sources say there was deadly weapon in use by the deceased, a car.
 

qnarf

you get gun!
#13
I think some of these statements are pretty unfair.

Undercovers aren't trained well for this kind of situation and if anyone is to blame it is the NYPD as a whole. They aren't supposed to be put this close to the action. The second a gun/shooting threat is involved undercovers and detectives have to be as far away from the situation as possible, especially after calling for backup. If any single person is to blame, maybe blame the Lieutenant or man in charge of the operation.

Can you honestly say that you can trust yourself to stay completely cool in a really dangerous situation when you get rammed by the car behind you when you know there is the possibility of a huge gun fight that is supposed to go down?

I'm not denying that 31 shots is a lot. You and me who are here sitting safely behind a computer, it's easy for us to say that it's excessive.
to squeeze 31 shots is to empty the gun, reload, empty again. that takes, i'm guessing here based on my range experiences with a 9mm glock, 15 seconds plus or minus. that's a shit ton of time to be shooting. and excessive, imho.
look, i'm not saying these guys went out to kill a black dude. i'm saying they responded really fucking badly to a situation that really went really fucking wrong and they bear some criminal responsibility for what their bullets did, which was kill one dude and severely wound some others. the dudes they hit who were not bell were in no way acting criminally. it can be argued bell may or may not have rammed the cruiser, putting that together is a practical impossibility since no one can say whether shots were fired prior or not, and no one can say whether the cops id-ed themselves in a way bell could hear [a lot of witnesses say not at all].
it's sad. it's horrible, and a person died, and i don't think this is justice.
 

qnarf

you get gun!
#14
I'm entitled to react to capital letters and insistence in knowing what happened that night with my opinion that that kind of reaction was decided long ago without full objectivity and perhaps with the influence of bias or prejudice against one side or the other. I wasn't there and I can't say what was going through anyone's mind. You seem to have specific knowledge that the detective whose acquittal you are so upset about made rational decisions based on some kind of malice and you are willing to capital letter me about it. I happen to have access to the same sources that you do about the case and my sources say there was deadly weapon in use by the deceased, a car.
you have a right to your interpretation, and i apologize if it offended you, as i can see where it came from and it was not my intent it be read so. i've edited the offending passage. apologies again.
 
#15
Thank goodness the masses here had access to all the particulars, witness statements and know the law so they can make a well informed decision instead of prejudices and Law and Order type legal reasoning.

Which is precisely why they didn't go with a jury.
 

qnarf

you get gun!
#18
You're telling me, in that situation, you wouldn't fear for your life? To me, the amount of shots is irrelevant. It's clear that Oliver panicked, had a small black-out, and fired too many times. That makes him someone who doesn't react well under pressure, but it doesn't make him a murderer. But responsive gunfire on the part of the police was certainly warranted.
i'm not telling you any such thing. i'm hold these guys to a high standard precisely because when they're held to a limited standard people die.
because cops have guns, they must be asked to use those guns responsibly.
here's a question: if isnora got hit by the car, did he end up in the hospital? i've not seen anything either way.
if bell did injure the cop, it certainly doesn't merit grievous injury to bell's pals.
and no, bell wasn't a saint, but i don't think that being a saint or not has bearing on what happened to him in the moment.
and yes, i am upset, and yes prior to the decision by the judge, i had made up my mind that blacking out under fire that wasn't coming from the people was not an excuse. blue on blue shooting isn't not an excuse for people to die and it's not an excuse to fire 31 shots at someone from a few feet away.
and i lay blame on the cops firing, but i'm aware that there is blame to go around. they should be better trained, better paid and better equipped. undercovers shouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.
 

Zhubin

Dr. Fantastic loves you
#19

What people don't realize is that shooting a man fifty times is actually a sign of respect. You're saying, "You sir, are too tough for one bullet. In fact, you're too tough for thirty-four bullets. My opinion of your strength is so high that I assume it will take no less than fifty bullets to take you down."
 

El Jefe

latitudinarian
Staff member
#20
It's clear that Oliver panicked, had a small black-out, and fired too many times.
"AAAHHHH!!!!!"

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang

"-AHHHHHHH! Oh, hold up a sec."

*reloads gun*

"Now, where was I? Oh yeah. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!"

bang bang bang bang bang bang
 
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